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So me and Elderly Crocodylinae just spent the past 3 hours of our lives running max tier German infantry into US rifles, as well as running american tanks into all the big cats, and here are our conclusions: US tanks are not as crap as previously thought. They cost way to much fuel for what they do, but other than that, they are pretty ok.
Even with the nerfs to German infantry they are still very survivable, girbs especially. But that’s not the point of this post. The main point is: Anti tank infantry squads ruin this mod.
And that’s a tall statement, even for me… but think about it, why are the big sov tanks and the big cats the only tanks of consequence in this mod… because these tanks are the only ones that can resist hand held anti tank weapons. Its easy for an anti-tank team to sprint up to a tank, and put a barrage of rockets into it, even though the tank may be firing at the infantry squad along with some supporting infantry. Why do we never see halftracks, luchs, light tanks, or the like? Because they all instantly die to the first anti-tank weapon. So you are probably asking ” so kitty, what if we remove AT teams?”. Well, AT guns still exist… the early game american and German AT guns are more than plenty to kill a luchs or a Stuart, and pak 40’s are great against Sherman’s, but vulnerable to US rifles at the same time. US tanks are still pretty respectable in comparison to even King tigers, and with some cast decreases could be really competitive.
the result of today’s tests (ignore the bottom graph, Brits will be done at later date):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qffF3peZLwMR-LjSkm-U3pbQdYJZlWmFFNBFTNQINW8/edit#gid=0
Ideally, if there was a way to make AT squads only work against heavy tanks, like the Pershing, big cats, big sov tanks, churchills, brumbars, etc. that would be perfect… so im wondering if its possible for bazookas, shrecks, and PIATS to only do full damage to certain types of tanks/armors.
Or restrict the AT squads ability to fire its rockets through an ability that can only be cast on certain units.
Is it possible to do something like this? What do you lot think?
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No idea if it is possible, but I like your ideas you point out.
In my own game play I do not use light combat vehicles and also almost never at guns… So I am totally the stereotype of what you describe – and yes, it is because the at inf is so powerful.
It would be nice to have a test game without the at infantry.
I could imagine to highly restrict bazooka and panzerschreck and so on to the elite troops only.
Kitty, please allow access to the file or no one can open it.
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Are you thinking about something along the lines of “over-penetration” where against thin armor that there is a chance to go right through without exploding?
Also – cant see the file sorry 🙁
Thanks for spending the time testing and for the detailed write up
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@mong: realistically, a HEAT rocket cannot over-penetrate, because of the way that it forms a plasma jet when it contacts any hard surface. Metal is the most susceptible to it, because it literally melts under the effect. In a non-enclosed surface, like the cabin/compartments of all the halftracks, a faust/shreck/zooka would not do much at all. The plasma jet would not fully form, and all the rocket would do is blast a whole into the thinner armor of the vehicle. Also, the light ammo of the light tanks and MG bullets of the halftracks would not detonate as it does right now in wikinger.
a AT gun is different… the kinetics of the shell means it splinters when it hits the vehicle, murdering the crew and destroying the engine block, so on, so on.
PIAT works as a shaped charge, like the AT grenades in the game. That is why it could be used as a mortar against bunkers. Also made it iffy against armor… but I’m not to concerned about the PIAT.
That would also be why sandbag/cage/net armor is effective: it detonates the rocket away from the armor, lowering the effect of early HEAT rockets plasma jets.
What i am talking about is making a damage tag for the bazooka that gives it a damage bonus against “heavy” targets; the targets that fall into the heavy category could be as follows: Churchill, big cats, IS, ISU-152, KV2, Sturmtiger and panzer, brumbar (but not Pershing. It is already vulnerable.)
@ordo. @lorarius: My problems exactly.Part of the issue is how hard to suppress certain infantry are, both on allied and German side… personally, 1 shot from a Sherman 75, or HE panzer should be an instant suppress on everything but rangers with heroic charge enabled. No whether rangers anti tank should have heroic charge… different matter. But i don’t like the idea of bazooka and especially shrek squads being as necessary as they are now. most anti tank kills in wikinger should be as in the war: aircraft, AT guns and ofc, other tanks. But it feels like rocket infantry reigned supreme, and we know that was not true.
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Yeah there is actually too much AT in form of Infantry AT on the field, especially in late game. This is a big problem since most of the elite units have access to AT and as they won’t get pinned by Tank MG fire Tanks like a PZ 4 with HE Gun are useless.
The last game with Olhausen is a good example, his Rangers were absolutely destroying my light and medium tanks if they came close enough. The PZ4 HE e.g. : You would think that it should be able to deal with one squad of rangers, but that’s not the case. They have around the same range in terms of effective actions. Rangers just hit the “Lead the Way” Button (is this how the ability is called?) and even with 2-3 shots of HE they destroyed it with one it.
Removing the amount of Inf AT held by normal units could be a way of making light vehicles and tanks up to medium tanks more attractive.
BUT
The main thing that is killing those tanks is Infantry running directly at the tank. I mean like straight.
I don’t have a problem with losing a tank to a sneaky AT squad or a AT squad around the corner, what bithers me is this straight sprint towards a tank without getting pinned or killed or whatever.
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new link, should work better
Another link from our test, look at how strong girbs are!
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Hi death Kitty, I am agree with you in one point, Gebirgsjager are really strong unit. The convination of multiple factors do them really danger:
a. One sniper in the squad
b. LMG 34 upgrade
c. Faust upgrade
The main problem is, this squad is in a doctrine with a lot of versatility. We plan to move them to a Wehrmacht faction in a future.
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As a newbie I have to agree with the original post. When armor start to be present on the field I go for anti tank infantary because the relative ease of use, the sheer power they have, ease of placement, ease of replacement, etc. I can only think making the damage itself done by HEAT being low, so that you can’t destroy with just a few hits, be enough to fix this.
This could be compensated with increase of criticals which represent a mobility kill or a firepower kill or a crew kill.
Then the crew could be killed by making them eject from the vehicle and then running an script responsible for eliminating the adequate number of models.
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With all due respect here, this post was for when AT infantry came a 2 tiers earlier than tanks. So they came at tier 1! They made using half tracks impossible, light tank impossible, and medium tanks hard. It is much better now. My suggestion is not to use tanks to spearhead assaults, if that is what you are doing, but to start off with infantry first. Tanks do not have good viability, and can be ambushed to the left or right of their vision range, or even beyond it. I personally don’t think there is an issue here, but ill keep in in the back of my mind as i play.
Perhaps your opponents have not been using scouting or all arms cooperation.
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I personally agree with almost everything you wrote Death_Kitty. It’s definitely better when at squads come later but it’s not enough to make light and medium tanks fully useful. In my opinion in current mod’s condition infantry is generally ridiculously oversatureted with AT weapons. It leads to “go for bigger cats” pattern of behaviour. In the other hand infantry AT weapons were never used as a primary at measuers and its simply unrealistic to make AT defence so highly infantry based.
There are several factors contributing to this issue:
-widespread of lethal AT weapons – easly available, effective and relatively cheap.
– very fragile axis medium tanks – pz 4 (in all versions) is way more susceptible to at infantry weapons than sherman (pz4 is killed by single salvo of bazooka at squad while sherman isn’t)
-not particularly attractive at guns – (personally i’m a fan of at guns, but that’s rather unpopular choice) – while some at guns can be truly effective counters to enemy tank there are several issues that should be changed – most important of them is that crews are dying way to fast from infantry weapons and tank machinegun fire – all in all crew is covered from small arms bfire by armor shield and should be more resistant to fire coming from front( sides and back should work exactly like it is now, but it would be great if frontal hemisphare could be better.protected).
45mm guns are almost uselles nowadays. They are dealing less damage than at rifles or machinguns. They are only useful when u want to stop early stuart rush.
– to fragile halftrack, light armor – however these by definition are not particularly strong vehicles, they should be able to withdraw while encountering enemy units at least. Moreover some of them are quite expensive while relatively useless – vide Puma – Puma is almost unable to penatrate Sherman’s rear armor, she deals ridiculously tiny damage on hit while she can be killed be mg fire in few seconds, oneshoted by any tank, and she is more expansive than stug or pz 4 f
overepresantation of heavy vehicles – especially in SS and US armor doc.
In current mod condition almost all infantry squad have acces to some at weapons. I understand the idea behind that, but problem is that these are way to effective measures. I think that a few changes could make wikinger way deeper and more realistic than it is now.
My suggestion would be as follows:
1 . Making infantry squads more specialized than it is now (especially some elite infantry squads like wunderwaffe jaegers, schwarze katzen, us paratroopers) there should be no “perfect against all threats” infantry units. I have some precise suggestions here, but that requires more place for explanations.
2. replacing some lethal AT measures with non lethal – giving infantry oportunity to counter enemy vehicles by making them blind, slowing them down or immobilizing – more weapons like sticky bombs, brandflasches/molotovs, or even at mines( available to some regular squads) less weapons like panzerfaust/bazooka
3. Changing bazookas and schrecks (available to regular infantry squads) into ammunition based abilities. It would make countering vehicles more micro demanding and less frequently used.
4. Making AT squads only squads capable of cost free use of Panzerschrecks and Bazookas. (I think that ideally these at weapons should be more powerful, but reduced to one in squad only, however there could be also some upgrades or abilities available, like at granade, or panzerfaust or at mine – depanding on faction).
5. Increasing number of critical hits done by infantry AT weapons – making some weapons like magnetic mine, or at granades more focused on getting enemy tank incapable of effective combat than killing it.
6. Decreasing heavy vehicles numbers ( this would require some serious changes however ) – not by making them more expansive – it’s not a solution. Currently we see some powerful AFV rolling in huge numbers. Some docs – like SS Wunderwaffe, SS Luftwaffe, US Armor have simply to many heavy tanks available. For instance Wunderwaffe can deploy several Tigers, Panthers and one King Tiger. Overall its simply to many. moreover these are all elite crew tanks. It should no be balanced by nerfing them, or introducing more of powerful allied tanks, but by desaturation/reduction of availability of these vehicles. 4 Panthers available to light infantry doc like Luftwaffe is not good at all. Same thing with US Pershings – these vehicles had absolutely no impact on war at all, they almost didn;t see combat, only 20 were delivered to Europe, but still they are available in significant numbers( i would reduce them to one call in ace only).
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Hi Morgoth: you have really good points, but the fact is, is not possible in our acutal state to reconstruct the AT system for infantry. We could do small changes.
I am fully agree about the problems with light vehicles like Puma and Halftracks. Maybe we could do his Mgs more usefull vs infantry. Giving them more accuracy, damage or giving “suppression ability”
Also, I am aware about the AT weapon problems. A few patches ago I worked around them. For the next patch I will tweak it more to give them better cover values vs infantry weapons and tank Mgs.
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