21/09/2019 at 8:07 pm #10134MystaliciousParticipant
It was brought up and discussed in the discord yesterday of how the Soviet Tier 0 units perform slightly worse than their counterparts due to lack of weapon pack strength, so the conclusion to this was:
- Give more Firepower to the Specialisation packs but limit these to tier 1 or 2 depending on their impact
- 2 or 3 PPSH SMGs for the Assault Pack ofcourse with matching price
- 2 or 3 SVT Rifles for the Defensive pack, again with matching price
This would make the conscript both a good fighting force against the more expensive and stronger german infantry most doctrines have, aswell as make them scale better into the late tiers and still be a good force for the late game phase.
As this is kept pretty short here are post made on the discord:
21/09/2019 at 9:40 pm #10135
22/09/2019 at 12:40 am #10139AydinParticipant
I agree in parts, but disagree with the thinking on the discord. Ironically I play with, but sometimes against, KC quite often.
On paper, I’m OK with giving out extra firepower at a tier lock. And perhaps the soviets should have more “flavor” infantry (as in soviet artillery has one type of strelky, armor another etc.). Guards in particular, I think this suggestion has merit.
That said, I don’t agree with the point that Soviets lose early game. The 270 vs ~335 manpower difference between Strelky and Jagers (for example) is significant. Strelky do fine vs weaker Axis infantry like Ostruppen or Pioners. In my experience, the Soviet player can often rush a position with extra numbers since their riflemen are more numerous. In particular, it allows for better flanking options to disregard cover. Maps that are very linear (e.g. Vire River) this can be harder.
Also important to note that the soviets already have an advantage in that the Maxim is 10 munitions cheaper and has a wider firing range than the MG34. So I don’t think the soviet early game meta is behind the Axis.
Historically/strategically, is there a case for “elite” soviet infantry in the docs that aren’t guards? Soviet casualties were higher than 1:1 even by the end of the war. Guards is chock full of elite infantry. Arty gets penals, and armor still has tank riders. I would find it odd to boost strelky significantly and give all 3+ soviet doctrines heavy infantry.
I do see his point on Festung grenadiers. The 210 cost for Festung grenadiers is CHEAP, and my impression is they can fight more or less on the level of Strelky. Especially as you upgrade with rifle grenades. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Going back to KC’s analysis though, I find his point on mid->late game off. When I play, the early KV1 rush gives me nightmares. I made a post about this a few weeks ago – it is very difficult to prevent a KV1 rush that drops right as they hit tier 3 due to the no fuel use. Early mid on vs. soviets I’m mentally preparing for it, doing my best to lay mines, rush the Sepp Brander call in etc. Some docs do better than others in the prep.
I won’t go into much detail, but if I’m losing or the KV1 breakthrough is successful it’s basically game over for the axis. Especially hard if you’re already losing by that point as you have less strategic depth to fall back into, less fuel for a counter-tank, and also the soviet player doesnt NEED to push in the same way.
Given the game overall game meta, especially when it comes to armor, I’m weary of any further boosts. Even artillery is nebulous — Penals are dirt cheap, their arty firepower is (naturally) incredible, and the Is-152 is an amazing heavy tank. They’re near perfect, with a mid/late game vulnerability to tank rush given mediocre AT. So all in all, I’m not convinced on the game impacts of empowering these 2 docs with even more firepower.
- This reply was modified 2 months ago by Aydin.
22/09/2019 at 4:48 pm #10145123nickParticipant
maybe the svt could be increased too 2 or 3 guns and price increased too match, but other than that idk- they seem as decent as ever, with their only lacking being a lack of AT. i personally think what russia needs is better AT, their infantry would be “good enough”- vs most targets (they prob wont beat high tier axis inf, like panzerfusiliers, panzergrenadiers, etc, but that goes for most allied line infantry).
also, if you have trouble with early KV-1 rush, just play pzgren. you get shreks from tier 1, on your pzgrens, and those are always good enough form of detterent. when i played, i managed too survive without losing any postiions when they got the kv-1, and when the kv-8 entered the field my panther just got deployed and made both tanks completely obsolete, combined with an elite pzgren squad. supposedly, rakatenwerfers can also deal with kv-1 id assume. for any other doc, tho, yeah i can imagine it being troublesome. however, iirc the kv-1 gun cant pen a stug, and stug is gotten at the same tier as kv-1, so that should be a functional counter.
about soviet arty- their arty is only good on paper. if you see the damage a b-4 barrage is doing, yeah, it will look deadly. if you realize the massive costs of all the munitions, manpower, and even fuel involved for a unit that cant engage anything directly, then, well, it becomes severely underwhelming. SS panzer artillerie, gets barrages equal (or close enough equal for what axis need artillery for) in strength, at a fraction of a cost, called in from vastly superior units.( i speak of the beobachtung pz 4 calling in either sector artillery or nebelwerfer 42 barrage- both are awesome). and, you have more sustained fire, because you also have a beobachtung scout car calling strikes independently. i will admit, the isu-152 is p good. it can 1 shot most axis heavies, minus the elefant or king tiger or jagdtiger, i think. its munition costs are absurd though- i checked, and i think it was like, 280 or so munitions too buy the tank, upgrade it with HE, and fire 1 artillery barrage with it. granted, that is a secondary purpose of it, but idk if anything should cost that much as a general guideline for balance in this game. it makes you ask- will the player always get 280 munitions worth of damage output because of this spending? id argue otherwise.
05/10/2019 at 4:44 pm #10259AydinParticipant
I don’t fully agree with the panzerschrek being the god tier counter for a KV1.
Perhaps I’m playing against a player who really knows how to use it, but infantry is always a very risky proposition vs a KV1. The shrapnel shot is an insta kill on any squad, and if the player is smart they have infantry support with the tank to prevent inf getting in too close anyway.
KV1 stays at medium range, picks off any defences, and moves forward with infantry as a proper assault tank.
My best luck early game has been to pull back, disable with an AT mine, then flank with serious infantry support to handle theirs.
Also yes, a stug can theoretically counter. However, the fuel costs means even if I’m teching up at the same pace, I need an extra 75 fuel before I can deploy compared to the KV1 at the start of tier 3. Not to mention, this assumes I never build a P2 or halftrack to help in the tier 2 game.
The thing with soviet armor is their scout tank call in is also just manpower based, so they can hit with a number of light vehicles / MG killers even as they prepare for the KV rush.
By mid tier 3 (i.e. when I have my own vehicles) this is not a problem. But that time frame in between means a good player will tear you apart and give them a strong winning position.
It follows that the KV8 is not a problem, it has build time and fuel costs and you can counter it. It is the insta deploy for only MP in tier 3 that is my issue.
I had a post here to go into more detail if you want to discuss Kv1: http://www.wikingeretow.com/wikingerforum/topic/delay-kv1-kv8-deployment/
I agree to a degree with arty. Their mid game anti tank is weak, so it has vulnerabilities. Soviet armor is the only one I am very bullish on not getting any further improvements to.
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