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just re-posting what was said in discord:
too clarify, i dont mean exactly 50 cal HMG suppresion x 4, even though it literally is 4x 50 cal hmgs. just more in general, soo it can properly disable and prevent infantry assaults like luchs, 222s, m15a1 CGMC, and too a lesser extent the centaur does.
if you have any feedback id love too hear it.
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Well, the point in the discord image stands. That said, I don’t think comparing autocannons with the quad 50 is an entirely fair comparison, so ill do it for you:
The sdkfz 251: has a set up period before it can fire, a slow turret rotation rate, so its balanced because of this
The luchs: Its a light tank, and requires tier 2 to produce (quad 50 can be rushed tier 1 iirc). It also costs a crap ton, is the weakest light tank in the game in terms of anti-vehicle damage, and has very slow turret rotation
The centaur: requires tier 3, can be one hit by a panzer 4… and anything heavier.
So the quad 50 should be compared to other half-tracks, as it lacks any of the other traits that is shared by the above vehicles. This means a buffed 50 cal:
-Shreds any vehicles in its weight class (and below), so anything other than a light tanks will die almost instantly
-Will shred any infantry, or pin them, which would allow it to cancel fausts (I believe the animation for faust firing gets canceled when a squad transitions from normal to suppressed?) and unlike russians and US, German AT grenades/AT rifle nades are comparatively rare.
-Will just become a very annoying and OP general purpose unit. Which is what I would argue it is now. So worse than that.
So in order to even THINK about buffing the quad 50, the following things must be true:
-It must be nerfed against other light vehicles, to stop it from killing the instantly-Needs a set up period, like the 251
-SMG assault infantry need some sort of passive resistance to suppression
-MG’s on other light vehicles need to be looked at: how is it that the MG of a sdkfz 221 is utterly useless?
That leads to another conversations, and I’m not sure changing all light vehicles is a good idea.
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give the 2cm of the germans default ammo some better AP performance. that way, both are multi-purpose weaponry.
also, the 251 isnt balanced no matter how its looked at in terms of deploy time. its AOE ability combined with its insane fire rate leads too near instant TTK (time too kill), which makes me view it as OP imo- the damage it does is uncomparable too any other unit in wikinger as far as i can tell, even with its deploy time. also, it can “deploy on the move” so to speak; pressing the stop button while its moving at full speed will allow it too continue drifting forward while going through the deploy animation, so you can have it be fully deployed or near fully deployed while going into line of sight of enemies, which further nullifies the penalty of its set up time (personally, i wonder if its possible too allow it too fire on the move like any other AA or armored vehicle and nerf its damage output so its more like a conventional light vehicle).
iirc, both wehrmacht and OKW have early access too either a panzerbuchse infantry squad or a 45mm russian captured AT gun, which both work in terms of AT, i think. most docs typically have a counter too the early light vehicle- ofcourse theirs exceptions, but generally speaking, light autocannon vehicles on both sides are in a good spot right now, compared too eachother. the luchs and the m15cgmc (37mm + 2 50cals) are about on par, the m15cgmc is p good early on but is also fragile, just like the equally early available 222- both can force infantry out of buildings under threat of death via auto cannon, allowing for pushes. only thing is, the m15cgmc doesnt need too load APCR rounds too pose a threat too vehicles, which is why i say default ammo for 2cm autocannons on the german side could use a buff. and id probably say a luchs wins vs a stuart with APCR rounds, and is more effective vs infantry than the stuart with its default rounds, and survives 1 shot from a 57mm AT gun iirc.
i DO think 50 cal pen should be nerfed a bit at long range too. 50 cals didnt instantly evaporate enemy armored vehicles at their maximum range, their AP ability dropped off over distance. but both nerfing the 50 cal and buffing the 2cm might lead too a bit of bias towards the axis side right now. generally, even with the light vehicle superiority of the allies, it still feels very easy for some axis doctrines (panzergrenadier in my experiences) too hold off until they get heavy tanks with ease. your starting munitions allows you too pick up a granatebuchse from the very start of the game with your first produced squad, and that 1 shots most light vehicles, from max range, from the front, somewhat reliably, basically hard countering the m15cgmc from the start. other doctrines arent that effective in countering light vehicles, but aslong as it has a light AT gun or some panzerbuchse (defensive gets panzerbuchses for their festung pioneer, panzer artillery gets the 45mm, freiwilligen gets the 45mm IIRC, luft gets the rakatenwerfer), it can survive vs the light vehicle.
too restate my initial point, the 50 cal halftrack, although good vs some light vehicles, isnt good enough vs infantry (the main core of any army in the early game where it is brought out) too justify buying, combined with its extreme fragility, and one tier later (a very quick tiering up), it starts going up againsts luchs which can essentially deal with it (the 50 cal, even quad, doesnt instantly evaporate the slightly uparmored luchs, and the luchs 2cm does reliable damage too the quad 50 cal even without APCR rounds, so they are on par). really, this isnt too big an issue- the only doctrine thats forcibly stuck with the quad 50 cal is IIRC US armor and maybe US airborne, for US infantry i always go for the 37mm halftrack over the quad 50 due too it being more versatile.
about the faust thing- although due too how quick engagements like these can be, the luchs has a decent chance of outright killing any squad that tries too faust it, and vice versa with the faust infantry. however, the mobility of almost all vehicles at this tier makes faust less of an issue overrall, and relying on infantry too kill an anti-infantry vehicle is probably a not so good idea. again, pinning enemy infantry is not as good as outright killing enemy infantry, which stuff like the M15CGMC and the luchs and the 222 and too a lesser extent the centaur can do (off topic, but, why does the centaur die in 1 hit too a 75mm gun but the ostwind takes 2?)
this hopefully clarifies what niche i want the quad 50 cal too fill compared too its equal peers of light vehicles. one more thing- i wouldnt mind if the quad 50 cal emplacement and the quad 50 cal on halftrack got different stats relating too damage output, for balance reasons, just like how the mg mounted on the pintle of a tank doesnt have the same stats as an actual HMG team.
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Not sure if I agree with your analysis to be honest Nick. I tend to switch between sides and I prefer the Soviet 50Cal halftrack to any of the other vehicles you’re mentioning.
It’s mobile and has no set up time, making it amazing as a skirmishing unit. Any inf caught in the open immediately has to retreat, and sometimes you can chase infantry down with it.
The set up time for the sdkfz makes it poor as an offensive weapon. You can creep forward with support, but generally if a player has an HMG in a building (or their own light AT rifles) it will have to pull off before even getting a shot. The 50 cal can go in and out.
The 50Cal also KILLS the Panzergren light vehicle call in. I’ve found it infuriating to have a Puma, especially designed as light vehicle killer, to get shredded by the 50cal.
The luchs is at a different tier as noted by death kitty. Added benefit is if the 50cal makes it to late game you have a free AA emplacement. Less of an issue when fighting Germans but still nice.
While I agree that doctrines with panzerbusche have a strong counter to the 50 cal, doctrines that don’t are very exposed. The 45mm and raketenwerfer need to be set up on the angle of attack, and (at least for the 45mm) doesn’t even kill the half track. Rak also has shit range. Unless you’re charging in blindly, it’s easy to just outmaneuver the AT guns and force a retreat. Panzerfaust is a decent counter, but the range means you’ll have to get in close. Again, not an issue if you keep skirmishing at range.
So while say, defense, is good vs the 50cal, a doctrine like Wunderwaffe is very exposed.
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about the thing with the puma- thats partially the reason i made this suggestion in the first place. the quad 50 should have way better suppression vs infantry and etc because its literally 4 50 cals, and the 2cm should be better than the 50 cal quad (and DEFINITELY better than the 50 cal single) vs vehicles. the puma should win vs the 50 cal quad, but in return the 50 cal quad should get near instant suppression vs vehicles out in the open. too compare, the 2cm flak halftrack gets near instant killing of infantry, and when loaded with hvap can win 1v1s with stuarts somewhat reliably. but even not considering the 2cm flak halftrack, the other autocannon vehicle thats on par with the 50 cal halftrack, the 2cm 222, it also has superior dmg vs infantry, due too the AOE of the shell, and all it lacks is maybe less suppresion than the quad 50 but in turn it just outright kills the squad instead of pinning them eventually. they also wreck infantry in buildings, due too how coh 2 damage model works. and the 2cm 222 and 50 cal quad have equal mobility and essentially equal armor.
i wouldnt mind having 50 cals have too upgrde with an AP round (ie switching from ball too AP-IT) in order too be able too do more dmg too light vehicles. youd have too make it more expensive or timed, since if you could toggle too it you would just have superior overrall performance too the default round unlike APCR for 2cm which is just specialized.
if you want a vehicle with similar performance and same tier too the quad 50 of the soviets, try the m15a1 cgmc. it has 2 50 cals and 1 37mm for all round performance and completely knocks the quad 50 out of the ball park in terms of its performance superiority
as i said before, the 251/17 can start its deploy animation on the move, making it more of an annoyance too using it on offensives than something that actually matters. just get it moving at full speed too where you want it too set up, and press the S hot key too order it too stop. it will automatically start deploying, but due too poor de acceleration it will keep moving, eventually drifting into range with the 251 set up and ready too evaporate any infantry in buildings.
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